Curse

majoho · Sep 21, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

I hate hackers and all but I also think it's a legal matter - not one I personally have to deal with, someone with authority deals with stuff like that or.... the terrorists win

Tremere · Sep 21, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollerith

You can add people to friend's when they're offline.

Pretty much, and any user engaging in unsavory activities knows how to hide IPs. Hell, I change my IP daily just by restarting the cable modem.

I don't understand what any of this accomplishes anyway. It's just a useless list of names to throw people a bone?

There are far more ways to identify a user than IP's. If you know anything about the internet, you would know that. As for what a released list of hacker's character's names would accomplish, please see the opening post of the thread. Thank you

Hollerith · Sep 21, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tremere

There are far more ways to identify a user than IP's. If you know anything about the internet, you would know that. As for what a released list of hacker's character's names would accomplish, please see the opening post of the thread. Thank you

And there's plenty of ways of circumventing those identifiers as well, but you must have known that as well.

I read the opening post a few times. I didn't find any reason except to just throw you a bone.

Eviance · Sep 21, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by KvanCetre

Honestly, it could be solved really simple:
Treat it like every other online thing ever.

Want to reset your password? Sure, we'll send you an email. Please confirm it, and we'll let you. Or heck, we'll send you a temporary password in your email.

Thats all fine and great but it doesn't do much to the person who tried to hack your account even tho they do have the IP (granted it could be a cover IP but its a lead none the less - heck I tracked the one to someone in our area, but couldn't get any further than that).
My husband is pretty careful with his passwords.... I mean heck its just long enough not to be easily crackable (thankfully).

While I don't see that releasing names would do any good other than to promote legal fiascos there ARE things that they could do that wouldn't. I mean it doesn't take much to track these things down if you have the knowhow and yes I do know it would take a lot of manpower. But if they ran across the more easier ones why not ban or block that IP? Or heck in some cases the woodbe hacks are not even smart enough to not use a random IP or to make a fake email addy... At least THREATEN them with legal action.
However catching your more talented hackers is not as easily done and would likely turn into much more hassle than its likely worth.

In the end I don't the best way to stop these hax0rs but there has to be something more that can be done for those getting their accounts ripped off. >_<

Roshi_ikkyu · Sep 21, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Perhaps the stupidest thread I've ever seen!
I mean that seriously

There is no vaild reason for Anet to release names and a millions $ worth of reason not to!

Lets count the reasons why!
1) Legal. Federal, International. All kinds of laws would rain firey hell upon Anet.
2) On going investigation.
3) Privacy, both haxors and Hackees. Don't give me that once you commit a crime you loose privacy BS.
4) Moral. What will knowing the names of the attackers do? Insight voilence, See implication 1.
-Let you slander there name all over your LJ...Myspace
-Have you track them down and give them a stern talking too!
-Tell you dad so he can go beat his dad up!
5) Company policy and precedent. Next you'll wanna know the names, IPs and personal details of every bot or spammer.
-Not to mention negating a companies privacy policy. Hackers names is only a short step away from the person who was hacked, think of the implications.

Anet changed there procedures and are adding new features to prevent this.

If it's Your security your worried about. Don't be stupid follow there advice. Don't use a public account addresses. And other suggested security features

Now a question to the OP, What would you gain from learning ther names?

Amity and Truth · Sep 21, 2006, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Well did YOU think before posting?
Don't discard other persons opinions by simply saying "think before posting" just because they don't share your point of view. I'm quite sure all of them have put a lot thought into their posts. So please, refrain from subliminally calling someone an idiot by stating they didn't think before they posted.

About the idea itself. Just don't do it. For some Scriptkiddies this won't be a Hackerlist but moreover a Hall of Fame they can brag and enlarge their E-Ego with. Just a similiar example, there was a game that didn't have much problems with the random PVP it allowed. But one day, the company decided it would be a good idea to activate a PK Hall of Shame. Guess what? That very same day the whole game became pure forced PVP with people aiming for the Hall of Shame Top 10.
Another example, there are several rate an image websites out there. And you will allways have the odd one out that aims for the lowest possible score to get into the hall of shame.

This is the same with your published list. It's a MOTIVATION to hack someone else's account for some sick kiddos. Instead of seeing less hackers, you will see a lot more. And yes, this post had a lot of thinking before i posted.

Eviance · Sep 21, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Tremere one thing you do have to realize is that some hackers are underage and even when tried in a court of law they cannot give the press or general public the true identity of the hacker.
Honestly even though your cause is great and so many of us would like to see something done - maybe an account lockdown after 3 attempts or something until the email account holder can verify the attempts - banning of the IP once the company has been notified that it was indeed someone trying to hack...

Even with these things there is not any real way to guarantee safety for us other than following the guildlines - there is no way that they could go about telling us names (even character names) that might bring some legal crap in it for them that likely would result of yes invasion of privacy since hacks are so very hard to prove.

For the most part that is what the general public is yelling. There are little things they can do to help like those I've suggested but beyond that we have to do our best to protect ourselves, so try to understand why people are going OMG IDIOT! (and most of them typically don't read an entire thread so chances are my posts were unviewed as many just read your opening argument before starting their tirade).

If there is anything beyond what a few of us have suggested then I wish for it to be implimented.

Tremere · Sep 21, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Well did YOU think before posting?
Don't discard other persons opinions by simply saying "think before posting" just because they don't share your point of view. I'm quite sure all of them have put a lot thought into their posts. So please, refrain from subliminally calling someone an idiot by stating they didn't think before they posted.

About the idea itself. Just don't do it. For some Scriptkiddies this won't be a Hackerlist but moreover a Hall of Fame they can brag and enlarge their E-Ego with. Just a similiar example, there was a game that didn't have much problems with the random PVP it allowed. But one day, the company decided it would be a good idea to activate a PK Hall of Shame. Guess what? That very same day the whole game became pure forced PVP with people aiming for the Hall of Shame Top 10.
Another example, there are several rate an image websites out there. And you will allways have the odd one out that aims for the lowest possible score to get into the hall of shame.

This is the same with your published list. It's a MOTIVATION to hack someone else's account for some sick kiddos. Instead of seeing less hackers, you will see a lot more. And yes, this post had a lot of thinking before i posted.

"Don't discard other persons opinions by simply saying "think before posting" just because they don't share your point of view. I'm quite sure all of them have put a lot thought into their posts. So please, refrain from subliminally calling someone an idiot by stating they didn't think before they posted."

I actually write "Think before posting" when it is obvious from someone's comment that they haven't read one of my previous points, or quite simply say something really dumb, like Sekkira, for example.

As for your other point : "It's a MOTIVATION to hack someone else's account for some sick kiddos. Instead of seeing less hackers, you will see a lot more."

Obviously the community playing that game had alot less backbone that the GW one, and backlash against the Hall of Shame entrant's was pathetic, unsustained, and impotent... which is not the sort of reaction i think GW account hacker's would receive... at the very least, from people whose accounts have been hacked, and the people that know them aswell.

So... err... oh yeah : "Think before posting."

Teehee

Zakarr · Sep 21, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Internet security issues are usually a bit difficult for common players. Proper password should be easy enough but necessary updates to the operating system probably aren't. I would suggest Anet to lock each account to certain IP-ranges by default so at least it would close unauthorized usage from foreign countries even if you get a dynamic IP. The problem would be to find out what IP-ranges each ISP is using at the player's region so it won't get locked when your ISP changes your IP.

Revealing the names of account stealers just creates more hate and doesn't really solve anything. They have multiple accounts and usually won't steal accounts so that they can play the game but use them as bot accounts or do something else which has risk of being banned. So at the end there would be just a chance to have innocent players to the black list. Player communities can't handle things like this reasonable enough. Chances for abusing are obvious.

Tremere · Sep 21, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eviance

Tremere one thing you do have to realize is that some hackers are underage and even when tried in a court of law they cannot give the press or general public the true identity of the hacker.
Honestly even though your cause is great and so many of us would like to see something done - maybe an account lockdown after 3 attempts or something until the email account holder can verify the attempts - banning of the IP once the company has been notified that it was indeed someone trying to hack...

Even with these things there is not any real way to guarantee safety for us other than following the guildlines - there is no way that they could go about telling us names (even character names) that might bring some legal crap in it for them that likely would result of yes invasion of privacy since hacks are so very hard to prove.

For the most part that is what the general public is yelling. There are little things they can do to help like those I've suggested but beyond that we have to do our best to protect ourselves, so try to understand why people are going OMG IDIOT! (and most of them typically don't read an entire thread so chances are my posts were unviewed as many just read your opening argument before starting their tirade).

If there is anything beyond what a few of us have suggested then I wish for it to be implimented.

I agree, any radical idea's and approaches to fixing problems are usually met with resistance until the required level of research and effort is put in to making them workable and the real tangible effect they have can be seen, consequently changing people's opinions over time. I am, and was, prepared for all of this. It doesn't change much at all, fortunately.

- Tremere

grogxz · Sep 21, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

i do not understand the sense of this petition.

someone hacks your account and destroys everything for the pure fun of it.
the hacker doesn't have to be a legal customer at all.
what account name do you give to public. there is nothing.

if he transfers the cash and items to a legal account you can't be sure
that it isn't an innocent player/guildmte that is abused for the transfer or disguise when he hacked multiple accounts to cover his tracks.
when such a list is public after the first day you can be sure that every hacker will cover his trck very carefully leaving only innocent people on the list.

determine the ip address for sure is not possible.
a) the hacker can have a dynamic ip address
b) the hacker can spoof an ip address
c) the hacker can ask his provider to change his ip address if he has a fixed ip (giving the reason that he is a victim of DOS attacks
d) the hacker can set up a proxy
c) since gw works on every computer that is connected to the internet he can use the inet connection of someone else for his attacks.

/notsigned bc senseless

Tyggen · Sep 21, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Tremere, of the 42 posts in this thread (this being the 43rd), you stand for 17 of them. This thread is two hours old, that means you've posted more then once every 8 minuites. Give it a rest, let other people discuss the topic at hand before you shoot down their arguments. You don't even take the time to think about what others have written before you post an answer to it.

Shanaeri Rynale · Sep 21, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Wow, can you get any more defeatist. Ever heard of an EULA? Understand what it can allow a company to do in regards to what we are discussing? Everyone had an update of that EULA, recently, and clicked it without even second thought, quickly trying to log in and get back to playing GW. Screw those countries data protection, you are little off the mark hun.

"Think before posting."

Sorry my patronising-ometer just went off. Some EULA's have been upheld in court. The BnetD one for example. However this was to do with reverse engineering, not privacy. To my knowledge the right to privacy is a fundimental right in most nations so for AN to broadcast such info would be inviting law suits from the EFF to class actions. For example the EU constituion has in it several clauses that guarante an individuals privacy. I can really see AN having the money and will to fight that one

Companies HAVE to have a privacy policy, not having one is bad mm'k, this is especially true in Europe where US companies need to abide by safe harbor agreements in order to export data and products to and from the US . Breaking it is also bad news. Those safe harbor agreement mean you cant just put in 'we have the right to name and shame who we like, so long as we(in secret hidden away) have done the investigations

In this case all AN's EULA does is help provide mitgation for any action taken against it. However to test those mitigations requires a court case. Which can and would get messy and expensive.

Dude, please face the facts. It's not defeatist it's how it is. In an ideal world everything would be hippy trippy happy and we could say and post what we darn well liked. Back in the free and easy days everything was just given away and no body minded, yipee.

We Aint in Kansas anymore.

Tremere · Sep 21, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyggen

Tremere, of the 42 posts in this thread (this being the 43rd), you stand for 17 of them. This thread is two hours old, that means you've posted more then once every 8 minuites. Give it a rest, let other people discuss the topic at hand before you shoot down their arguments. You don't even take the time to think about what others have written before you post an answer to it.

Throwing out some random numbers and statisical analysis of my posting pattern doesn't mean much other than prove my interest and concern over the issue. People can post when and how much they want to. No offense, but i started the thread, and the fact that people are discussing could be traced back to me raising it. I read every post, and all i've replied to i have thought about, thanks. If you are scared of my responses, maybe you shouldn't post either. Many thanks for your contribution

- Tremere

Xian · Sep 21, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

It does more than prove your interest and concern, it proves everyone else's lack of interest and concern. This will be the 47th post and not a single person has agreed with you so far, doesn't that say something about your 'petition'?

Roshi_ikkyu · Sep 21, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tremere

They just insert a small clause into the EULA stating that if you are found to be guilty (beyond 'reasonable' doubt, which, sure... a state court could decide upon what that is) you void your privacy policy. And yes, it is to slander them all over the community... thats precisely the point.

And it would end there. Not every infringement into privacy for these reasons deterring wrongdoer's turn into massive human rights abuses... christ... i'm not asking for another Patriot Act.

Get real, please.

Post that section of the EULA.

Then Dictionary.com for assistance Re: Guilty.

Wikipedia for information about international laws related to digital offences and internet laws and regulations. And possible other links.

A indepth understanding of legal proceeding and you'll be in the realm of sanity.

Once/If there found guilty in say 5-7 years, remembering you can appeal.
You might get your list, If and this is just a big IF now. Someone in Anets legal department doesn't get around to explaning the legal implications of suppling their names with out permission.
And more so for the intent you have.

Important thing to remember. And I'll post it so you understand.

Legal Justice defeated EULA. +25 faction for Justice.

Get real, please.

Ironic you would post that!

/signed. To close this thead and burn the digital media preserving any traces of this insanity.
Petition to release the names of Stupid forum posters, currently increation! (THATS A JOKE, Otherwise I would have to add me own name to the list!)

Inde · Sep 21, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Flames aside, not even GuildWarsGuru.com allows people to announce the name of scammers. I think the counter-arguement has been made clearly in this thread and this will not be happening. So it's being closed.